Cultural faux-pas, and question of the day:

[erinlefey]

[Public]

Last night I was at a party, and was introduced to a gentleman with a beard and cool hat. Typically when I'm introduced to someone, I hug them, and brother, when a economy-size woman hugs you, you know it. I could sense some unease though, and just offered to shake hands. The lovely woman who was introducing us explained that he was an Orthodox Jew, and Orthodox Jewish men cannot touch a woman with whom they are not married. Whups.

Did not know that, and it's nifty to learn, and glad I learned it before I violated a cultural more of his. My question to My Dear Readers is this: Are there any similar cultural differences you've run into socially? What are they and how do you deal with it?

Comments

[zahav.livejournal.com]

so, the interesting thing that i think about in relation to Jews who are shomer/shomeret-n'giah (observant of n'giah) is this: how does it apply to gay Jews, for whom physical contact with someone of the opposite sex is relatively inconsequential? (and there definitely ARE gay Orthodox Jews who would like to be shomer/shomeret-n'giah)

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

Is the contact a relationship thing or a gender role thing? If the former, I can see gay Orthodox Jews not touching someone of the same sex. If the latter, the current setup still applies.

And apparently I shouldn't sing around a male Orthodox Jew? Hearing a woman sing is also not allowed?

[zahav.livejournal.com]

i'm pretty sure it's a relationship thing. i think that gay Orthodox Jews who wish to be observant of this particular law in a meaningful way would refrain from touching someone of the same sex (but since the Orthodox world is largely a homophobic one, they would also, by general custom, also have to refrain from touching people of the opposite sex; thereby effectively preventing them from human contact with anyone outside their immediate family, and i think that a lot of ppl struggle because of this). it's something that doesn't have an easy answer.

also, yes, you shouldn't sing around a male Orthodox Jew (and this is also a basis for the law saying that women can't have a vocal role in the synagogue)

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

it is not a relationship thing.
negiah is related to niddah which has to do with family purity laws based on a woman's "cleanliness" and "uncleanliness" during menstruation and after childbirth.
DISCLAIMER: the hebrew words are translated as "clean" and "unclean" but have a spiritual meaning more than a physical one and the concept is not one i can adequately explain here.

gay orthodox males do not have a probelm with the laws of niddah amongst themselves.

also, i have met many orthodox men who will shake hands with other women in their community if that woman offers her hand first. by offering her hand she is showing that she is not in "her time."

i recognize that these laws may seem ridiculous at best, misogynst at worst to many outside the community.

but i would urge that you be respectful of others regardless of your personal beliefs, at least in your public dealings with them.

their ways may not be yours, or even mine, but imo, orthodox jews have been part of the reason the jewish community is still in existence.

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

"but i would urge that you be respectful of others regardless of your personal beliefs, at least in your public dealings with them."

Rifka, sweets, I think you're seeing offense where none is intended. zahav is a grad student in religious studies, I believe it may be specifically on Judaism. I'm not sure how things in this thread got off kilter, but let's bring it back on-kilter. You and zahav may end up disagreeing, but I've never seen any disrespect from Zahav towards any religion.

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

i probably didn't communicate well enuf, i wasn't seeing anything offensive in zahav's response, i think i was being pro-active as i've spent so many years having to defend orthodox judaism to others.

but no, i definitely didn't see his post as being offensive.

[skygoesgrey.livejournal.com]

"his"

ha:)

look, love, you're getting sir'd on the internets! woot!

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

is that a good or bad thing?
i didn't mean to assume anything about gender- i think i assumed (and i totally shouldn't have- i plead being tired and hungry when i posted) because afaik zahav is a masculine word, the feminine equivalent is zahava.

but again i totally apologize if i offended.

[skygoesgrey.livejournal.com]

no! you didn't at all. Jo likes being sir'd:)

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Huh. I wouldn't force a touch on anyone who wasn't interested, but to tell me that I shouldn't sing, or talk, or in any way circumscribe any non-intrusive behavior because someone else isn't comfortable with my doing it, that's just downright offensive to me.

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

i agree with this.

altho i when i go into an orthodox shul i am respectful of their customs, just as i would be when i went into any culture that is different from what i do everyday.

kewl icon.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

when i go into an orthodox shul i am respectful of their customs

You make a good point. It's a lot about context.

And thank you for the compliment. I've collected some good icons. I'm not entirely sure I like this one as much--what do you think? :)

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

this one is even better, imo. altho guaranteed to piss off some people.
a friend of mine just had her bet din and we made a "list of reasons she wanted to be a jew" and it included: "drink christian's blook" "have horns" "dominate the world" "have all the money"

LMAO

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I think I was unclear. I wouldn't sing in his presence, out of my own politeness rather than any feeling of being forced to do so. If I really felt the urge to burst into show tunes, I'd just warn him ahead of time. I should do that anyway, to allow innocents time to get out of the blast zone.