Cultural faux-pas, and question of the day:

[erinlefey]

[Public]

Last night I was at a party, and was introduced to a gentleman with a beard and cool hat. Typically when I'm introduced to someone, I hug them, and brother, when a economy-size woman hugs you, you know it. I could sense some unease though, and just offered to shake hands. The lovely woman who was introducing us explained that he was an Orthodox Jew, and Orthodox Jewish men cannot touch a woman with whom they are not married. Whups.

Did not know that, and it's nifty to learn, and glad I learned it before I violated a cultural more of his. My question to My Dear Readers is this: Are there any similar cultural differences you've run into socially? What are they and how do you deal with it?

Comments

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

The Orthodox Jewish rules regarding opposite-gender touch is apparently called Negiah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah

[apryl-knight.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! I saw him last night, and my first thought was "wow...doesn't get more Jewish than that!" I figured it was just a coincidence. Go figure that he really was!

[stacycat69.livejournal.com]

There was a woman at the party who didnt shake hands, and we had a conversation about the social norms of greeting.

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

Was it a personal choice or a cultural one?

[stacycat69.livejournal.com]

She started working at a hospital, and became a germaphobe :-)

[zahav.livejournal.com]

so, the interesting thing that i think about in relation to Jews who are shomer/shomeret-n'giah (observant of n'giah) is this: how does it apply to gay Jews, for whom physical contact with someone of the opposite sex is relatively inconsequential? (and there definitely ARE gay Orthodox Jews who would like to be shomer/shomeret-n'giah)

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

Is the contact a relationship thing or a gender role thing? If the former, I can see gay Orthodox Jews not touching someone of the same sex. If the latter, the current setup still applies.

And apparently I shouldn't sing around a male Orthodox Jew? Hearing a woman sing is also not allowed?

[zahav.livejournal.com]

i'm pretty sure it's a relationship thing. i think that gay Orthodox Jews who wish to be observant of this particular law in a meaningful way would refrain from touching someone of the same sex (but since the Orthodox world is largely a homophobic one, they would also, by general custom, also have to refrain from touching people of the opposite sex; thereby effectively preventing them from human contact with anyone outside their immediate family, and i think that a lot of ppl struggle because of this). it's something that doesn't have an easy answer.

also, yes, you shouldn't sing around a male Orthodox Jew (and this is also a basis for the law saying that women can't have a vocal role in the synagogue)

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

it is not a relationship thing.
negiah is related to niddah which has to do with family purity laws based on a woman's "cleanliness" and "uncleanliness" during menstruation and after childbirth.
DISCLAIMER: the hebrew words are translated as "clean" and "unclean" but have a spiritual meaning more than a physical one and the concept is not one i can adequately explain here.

gay orthodox males do not have a probelm with the laws of niddah amongst themselves.

also, i have met many orthodox men who will shake hands with other women in their community if that woman offers her hand first. by offering her hand she is showing that she is not in "her time."

i recognize that these laws may seem ridiculous at best, misogynst at worst to many outside the community.

but i would urge that you be respectful of others regardless of your personal beliefs, at least in your public dealings with them.

their ways may not be yours, or even mine, but imo, orthodox jews have been part of the reason the jewish community is still in existence.

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

"but i would urge that you be respectful of others regardless of your personal beliefs, at least in your public dealings with them."

Rifka, sweets, I think you're seeing offense where none is intended. zahav is a grad student in religious studies, I believe it may be specifically on Judaism. I'm not sure how things in this thread got off kilter, but let's bring it back on-kilter. You and zahav may end up disagreeing, but I've never seen any disrespect from Zahav towards any religion.

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

i probably didn't communicate well enuf, i wasn't seeing anything offensive in zahav's response, i think i was being pro-active as i've spent so many years having to defend orthodox judaism to others.

but no, i definitely didn't see his post as being offensive.

[skygoesgrey.livejournal.com]

"his"

ha:)

look, love, you're getting sir'd on the internets! woot!

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

is that a good or bad thing?
i didn't mean to assume anything about gender- i think i assumed (and i totally shouldn't have- i plead being tired and hungry when i posted) because afaik zahav is a masculine word, the feminine equivalent is zahava.

but again i totally apologize if i offended.

[skygoesgrey.livejournal.com]

no! you didn't at all. Jo likes being sir'd:)

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Huh. I wouldn't force a touch on anyone who wasn't interested, but to tell me that I shouldn't sing, or talk, or in any way circumscribe any non-intrusive behavior because someone else isn't comfortable with my doing it, that's just downright offensive to me.

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

i agree with this.

altho i when i go into an orthodox shul i am respectful of their customs, just as i would be when i went into any culture that is different from what i do everyday.

kewl icon.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

when i go into an orthodox shul i am respectful of their customs

You make a good point. It's a lot about context.

And thank you for the compliment. I've collected some good icons. I'm not entirely sure I like this one as much--what do you think? :)

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

this one is even better, imo. altho guaranteed to piss off some people.
a friend of mine just had her bet din and we made a "list of reasons she wanted to be a jew" and it included: "drink christian's blook" "have horns" "dominate the world" "have all the money"

LMAO

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I think I was unclear. I wouldn't sing in his presence, out of my own politeness rather than any feeling of being forced to do so. If I really felt the urge to burst into show tunes, I'd just warn him ahead of time. I should do that anyway, to allow innocents time to get out of the blast zone.

[liddle-oldman.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. If I were a woman, and were introduced to someone who "could not touch women" because his imaginary godlet told him so, I would just rub myself all over him until he cried.

That being said, no, I haven't run into it. None of my friends keep kosher, and probably wouldn't recognize it if it bit them. We're all pretty assimilated out here.

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

and how would you feel if someone was that disrespectful of you?

[liddle-oldman.livejournal.com]

If I were telling them that they were not fully human because voices in my head told me they weren't?

I'd hope they would have the gumption to smack me upside my magic-thinking head.

Love your neighbor as yourself. From this comes all the laws and all the prophets.

That being said, yes, it is pretty disrespectful. I just don't see any reason to respect that belief -- in the same way I don't see any reason to respect the Klan beleif that black people are subhuman, either.

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

I can see how you come about this view. I'm not sure I share it. I don't think that the Orthodox men think women are not fully human. I'm not even convinced they see women as LESS. I think it's based in a worldview where men and women inhabit very different spheres. I can see the reluctance to touch women as being very protective and respectful of women.

I don't know if that's the case, as zahav, lj user="purplerifka">, and comodulate are my Judaism experts, rather than me. But I can see it.

[purplerifka.livejournal.com]

if you read my post to zahav and the actual article in widipedia and do any research at all- nowhere does orthodox judaism say women are sub-human and in fact it is just the opposite.

their way may not be your way but that doesn't mean you can't respect it.

as erin said, in orthodoxy men and women do usually operate in different spheres of life outside the home, but one is not more than the other.

as i understand it, and she will tell me if i am wrong, erin is very spiritual a person.
would you tell her that her beliefs are from voices in her head?

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

Southern Indians move their head from side to side to indicate they're agreeing with you. I've been told this prior to encountering it. I've been immersed in it for almost a month. I've even learned how to do it myself when there.

But it still feels weird when you're telling one of them something reasonable and they seem to be silently smiling and shaking their head at you.

[erinlefey.livejournal.com]

Fascinating! And this is Southern India? And in Northern India, assertion is the up and down motion?

Wow. What happens where the two territories meet? If you agree, your head explodes from trying to shake and nod at the same time.

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what they do in Northern India (I didn't go up there), but I know that the people I met in Southern India are Tamil, and that the people up north are something else (what exactly, I don't know).

I've heard my coworkers explain several times what the difference is between the side-to-side "yes" and the side-to-side "no" (their sign for no looks just like ours), and I get a lot of different explanations that don't really hold water. Some say it's how far to each side they go. Some say it's straight for no and wobbly for yes. Some say it's fast for no and slow for yes. Watching them do it, they really don't differ so much or in predictable ways that I can tell.

The way I use to tell which is which is that they're usually smiling for yes and not smiling for no.

Oh, and when they say "atcha atcha atcha" they're thinking about what you said, not necessarily agreeing with it.